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Currently Strongest Possible Team
#1
Since I just figured out the defense formula, it is now pretty clear how you can build the strongest possible team.
You need a Leonidas and a friend with a Leonidas and use both as captains. When you have a full legendary team (each fighter about 1500 defense) on max level, then you have about 9000 base defense, which is multiplied by 4 because of the Captain skill. 36k defense means a damage reduction of 91.75%

That means the damage you recieve from a max Archangel in PvP is reduced from 48.5k to 4k damage.
Archangels attack every 2 turns (except for the first time), so you only recieve 2k damage every turn.

The damage you recieve from a max Leonidas in PvP is reduced from 34.6k to 2.8k damage (every turn).

In order to heal you could rely on the random skill of Lust/Wrath/Greed/Sloth/Gluttony and healing gems. Greed's active skill, which creates a protection barrier of 6000 damage points, is very useful, too.

Your attack power is multiplied by 4 because of the captain skill, and can be boosted to 8x or even 16x when you use Leonidas' active skill.


In my opinion Leonidas and his damage reduction is a bit overpowered at the moment. If things continue like this, every single player will use Leonidas as Captain when they get one.
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#2
You are right Thali, great research on the defense formula btw. That lineup seems overpowered, you are right. What would you suggest?
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#3
(10-23-2015, 07:19 PM)QAMG Wrote:  You are right Thali, great research on the defense formula btw. That lineup seems overpowered, you are right. What would you suggest?

Ive thought about this a bit and its hard to really pin point a solid balance mainly in the pvp arena.  My first and possibly easiest suggestion is increase the dropoff of regression slightly.  Play around with that and see what happens.  In it's current state, the defense stat is definitely a bit too dominant all around in my opinion.

Second, increase the tradeoff with the fighters that have 2x defense.  As of now, they are the most well rounded Captain because of the 2x dmg also.  I know this may be getting a bit technical, but try running the dmg at 1.75x.  Some of your units--Legendaries especially--need a little more defined roles with increased tradeoffs. Right now, we have Nukers with healing abilities and energy generators creating ridiculous survivability to dmg output combinations. This is including Defenders.  You should have a formula that will show a "balancing" value combining all statistics to make sure a unit is not overpowering.  Put a weight on each statistic to equalize the numbers and you can get a bit of an idea from this.  Just know, you will always have metas.  But you can change these or make them less obvious through minor changes.

My last piece is if you create more defined roles, give attackers more to plan off of.  Take pvp, after you choose to challenge someone officially, what if you could see the amount of waves, number of defensive units per color, and basic stats like total dmg output and total defense--much like the planning screen for the attacker when building a team?  And once you reach this point, you cannot back out without wasting one of your 3 fights.

Right now, we are somewhat forced to design a team that is great for all situations because we never know what that situation will be.  We have no way to really specialize a team unlike the arenas for material farming or lairs.

This is also true with defenders.  Remember the "amulets" thread i made?  This could be a way to create some great variety and specialized roles.  With proper tradeoffs, you can really offer some interesting gameplay.  As of now, Im seeing the same layout for most battles.  Having these "amulets" can be a great moderator for dealing with metas like Leonidas and the Defense stat.  You can create perks that counter such abilities.

Let me know what you think.

Note: Weight should not be included with the balancing between fighters as that is directed more towards controlling a players' progression (i.e. level 30 having six 30 weights).  Im only considering the end game where players are much higher levels.
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#4
Thank you for asking me, a mere player, for my opinion about how to balance gameplay. I really appreciate it.

It is quite a delicate matter, and I need a bit more time to think about it.
I have some thoughts in mind, but I need to sort them out and think them through.
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#5
I think the best way to solve the defense problem is to reduce the defense bonus from 2x to about 1.5x (including the captain skills of the golems).

So when you have 9000 base defense and stack two of these captain skills, the damage reduction will be about 75%.
48.5k -> 12.1k
34.6k -> 8.7k

You can survive one hit of a maxed out defender, but you need active skills to stun the enemy or to heal.

1.6x defense bonus could work, too, but with the current defender stats I prefer 1.5x defense bonus.
The damage reduction with 1.6x defense (stacked to 2.56) is about 80%:
48.5k -> 9.7k
34.6k -> 6.9k
That would mean above Level 120 a player can survive 2 hits of a maxed out Leonidas defender, but in combination with stunning the enemy that is already too easy in my opinion.

Even if the bonus is reduced to 1.5x and stacked to 2.25x, the total damage reduction is still equal to a permanent "Ignore Pain" skill of Mighty Cyclops, and I think that is reasonable. So you can either choose to use captains with high multipliers to get more attack power and use a Mighty Cyclops to reduce the damage, which is risky and needs higher skills, or you can use 2x Leonidas to reduce the damage.
(9000 defense -> 46%, "Ignore Pain" 60%
0.54*0.4 = 0.216
78.4% total damage reduction)


But there are two other aspects that need to be solved in order to make gameplay and PvP more balanced and fair.
1) active skills: stunning, damage reduction, healing
2) scale a player's battlefield strength to his combat strength

Writing about these will take a while, so I will continue later.
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#6
To sum up my previous post:
I think it is a good idea to change the captain skill of Leonidas and the Golems to:
"2x attack & 1.5x defense for XXX fighters"


Edit: With the introduction of Scarecrow and Werewolf, this post became rather pointless. Feel free to skip it.

Quote:1) active skills: stunning, damage reduction, healing
There is one thing in this game that is really unfair, because it depends on luck and can give you a huge advantage in end game:
the active skills of Cyclops, and especially Medusa
(Edit: I meant that, if you are unlucky and don't get a Medusa / Cyclops in the rare machine for a long time, that is unfair)

1.1) Why do you need damage reduction and what possibilities do you have?
In top-level PvP and PvE you face enemies with 30k~50k attack power and 1~4 million health. That means in most cases you can't kill them before they attack you, which means you need damage reduction in order to survive their hits.

In order to get more damage reduction or health you have several possibilities:
  • a) captain skills of monks
  • b) captain skill of Yeti Ian
  • c) captain skill of Minotaur
  • d) captain skills of Leonidas or Golems
  • e) active skills of Greed or Cronla
  • f) active skill of Mighty Cyclops
a~c) have the disadvantage that there is no damage multiplier, so that battles can take ages (very frustrating)
a) is okay in PvE when you know which color your enemies are, but bad in PvP when you don't know
d) the Golem strategy needs a monocolor team, which I consider to be a specialized strategy (many players might rather want a balanced team consisting of different colors)
d) it can take really long to get a Leonidas in PvP, so as beginner you can't use this strategy
e) you can create a protection barrier of XXX damage points, but in most cases that isn't enough to survive enemy attacks



1.2) What kind of playstyle should be encouraged for players with high puzzle skills?
In other words: How do you set the highest difficulty?

In my opinion, the game really should reward high puzzle skills. Players should be able to use captain skills with 3x or 4x or 5x attack multipliers when 3, 4 or 5 different colors are matched, and at the same time they should be able to survive enemy attacks.

Therefore they need a team consisting of all colors, and that is good. Having a balanced team should be encouraged in this case.

The only way to reduce damage in this case is the active skill of Mighty Cyclops ("Ignore Pain", consumes 4500 energy, 60% damage reduction for one turn).

So a match on top-level against a really strong enemy (for example a maxed out Leonidas in PvP) with hardest difficulty is like this:
  • use "Ignore Pain" when enemy attacks
  • attack with 9x, 16x, 25x or 36x attack power (boost attack power with Leonidas' active skill)
  • heal back to full health with Limtel's active skill ("Full Heal", consumes 4200 energy)
  • repeat
So if you fight an opponent who attacks every turn, you need 8700 energy every turn.
This is about as hard as it can be, but it is possible.

When you have a Medusa, this strategy becomes a lot easier, because you only need about 3400 energy every turn:
beginning with full health:
  • use "Stone Frighten" (consumes 5000 energy, stun enemy for 3 turns)
cycling:
  • use "Ignore Pain" when enemy attacks
  • use "Stone Frighten"
  • heal back to full health with Limtel's active skill
  • repeat
You need 5000 + 4500 + 4200 energy in four turns
13700 / 4 = 3425

Medusa's active skill is so powerful in end game that you can even take down a Leonidas defender (with current max stats) before it attacks.
You can vary this strategy by using different Captains, like double Leonidas or Lust/Erigs.



To make a long story short:
Having a Cyclops and a Medusa gives you a great advantage in end game, just because of their active skills.

The problem: Some people might get these two fighters early, some people might spend a lot of money and still don't get them.

One possible solution: make active skills customizable
Maybe there could be "Skill Amulets" (again, referring to bleser's idea), that each have a certain active skill. When you equip a fighter with that Skill Amulet, the fighter's active skill changes to that specific active skill.
These Skill Amulets could be obtained in end-game dungeons or bought with about 10 diamonds.

But there shouldn't be skill amulets with active skills that boost your attack power. Because these multiply, you could create high damage output with low effort. Not a good idea.

Suitable active skills are:
healing, damage reduction, stunning (Full Heal, Endure Pain, Ignore Pain, Stone Look, Stone Frighten)
skills that create a protection barrier
the skill that I suggested in my other thread ("Diversify")



Well, that was a lot of text. I hope I didn't make it sound too complicated, and I hope I explained it in a comprehensible way. I'm not a native english speaker, so it is quite hard for me.
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#7
Thanks both for the sugestions. First bleser for the PvP pre-match strategy, sounds really good for more hardcore players; we'll keep it in mind for future upgrades.

As for Thali, there are still a lot of tactics for a hard Boss. You may use the Leonidas (defense) approach, or the Limtel+Minotaur one (this one was nerfed with the 'rage' of Bosses). The double Erigs with Lust seems great but really time consuming and you should use the Rare Machine a lot and get lucky. The most popular one now is the reward for puzzle skills/luck as the double multipliers (pirates, medusa, cyclops and hydra) can bust a boss in a good combo.

As for the rising defense strat, we'll figure a way to reduce that 93% and get it near 70%. If it's either a formula or Active Skill modification I'll let you know.
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#8
(10-26-2015, 06:44 PM)QAMG Wrote:  Thanks both for the sugestions. First bleser for the PvP pre-match strategy, sounds really good for more hardcore players; we'll keep it in mind for future upgrades.

As for Thali, there are still a lot of tactics for a hard Boss. You may use the Leonidas (defense) approach, or the Limtel+Minotaur one (this one was nerfed with the 'rage' of Bosses). The double Erigs with Lust seems great but really time consuming and you should use the Rare Machine a lot and get lucky. The most popular one now is the reward for puzzle skills/luck as the double multipliers (pirates, medusa, cyclops and hydra) can bust a boss in a good combo.

As for the rising defense strat, we'll figure a way to reduce that 93% and get it near 70%. If it's either a formula or Active Skill modification I'll let you know.

Thank you for the reply. The sad part, I once had a double Erigs....
Too bad I was in desperate need of a good Defense boss.
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#9
Okay, I think I wasn't straight to the point.

I know that there are a lot of tactics by combining certain captain skills:
2x Leonidas, 2x Minotaur (+Limtel heal), 2x Golem and monocolor team, double multipliers (pirates, medusa, cyclops and hydra), ...

But the point is, you can combine (almost) all of these tactics with Cyclops and/or Medusa, because they don't need to be captains in order to use their active skills.
These two active skills give you dramatically increased survivability, and it would be fair, if every player has a chance to get these two skills with a reasonable amount of effort.

I was thinking about challenges for top players, where the boss may have 10~20 million health and/or 100k attack every turn (so you'd have to stack 2x "Ignore Pain").
I'd like to try such a challenge myself, but you'd need at least the essential active skills in order to do that.
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#10
(10-26-2015, 08:40 PM)Thali Wrote:  Okay, I think I wasn't straight to the point.

I know that there are a lot of tactics by combining certain captain skills:
2x Leonidas, 2x Minotaur (+Limtel heal), 2x Golem and monocolor team, double multipliers (pirates, medusa, cyclops and hydra), ...

But the point is, you can combine (almost) all of these tactics with Cyclops and/or Medusa, because they don't need to be captains in order to use their active skills.
These two active skills give you dramatically increased survivability, and it would be fair, if every player has a chance to get these two skills with a reasonable amount of effort.

I was thinking about challenges for top players, where the boss may have 10~20 million health and/or 100k attack every turn (so you'd have to stack 2x "Ignore Pain").
I'd like to try such a challenge myself, but you'd need at least the essential active skills in order to do that.

Im gonna add to your idea Thali. What you are suggesting is pretty much Endgame events with special perks which I really like. These could be considered the "Raids" of Skydoms

We pretty much have similar cases with material farming and their defense stat as we speak but as Thali mentions, put in a certain arena that has some unique mechanics that only extreme end-game players can handle with some great rewards if obtained.

Example: enemies heal full health after every turn thus requiring the player to kill them in one hit in order to move on to the next wave. Or maybe a Raid that does not allow the player to use any energy. Maybe one that is timed by freezing one of the players' gems at the end of each turn and can never be used or destroyed for the rest of the round---this one would be very interesting!!!!
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